Conversations in Black and White
ROKKIT88, a black female, and Odeko, a white male, sit down and discuss issues about race and racism in America.
Conversations in Black and White
Colorism, Project 2025, and Media Influence
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Be a part of the conversation!
What if our conversations about race could spark real change? Join us as we navigate the complex terrain of racial discussions in America, starting with our own technical hiccups and the invaluable role of public libraries. Our journey begins with an exploration of colorism, where we dissect the societal preference for lighter skin tones within BIPOC communities, using both personal stories and public figures like OJ Simpson to shed light on its deep-seated impact. This sets the stage for a broader discussion on Project 2025 and the intricate web of politics and perceptions that define our world today.
Buckle up as we critically examine Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's formidable influence on American political landscapes. The conversation takes a sharp turn as we question the foundation's real intentions behind their conservative maneuvers, especially in the context of significant political shifts like the overturning of Roe v. Wade. We probe the dynamics of power, autonomy, and the often unseen strings that guide political leaders, daring to ask who truly holds the reins in shaping our nation's future.
Our dialogue doesn't stop there; it extends into the realm of media and its powerful role in molding societal views on race. By reflecting on century-old narratives and their persistent effects on modern perceptions, we highlight the continued portrayal of black individuals in stereotypical roles. We also grapple with the crucial themes of police transparency and the nuanced nature of white allyship in social justice movements, sharing personal encounters and observations that emphasize authenticity over superficial support. Tune in as we strive to connect these intricate themes, offering a thought-provoking look at race, identity, and the stories we tell ourselves.
Colorism and Perception in America
Speaker 1Hi, I'm Odeko.
Speaker 2And I'm Rocket88.
Speaker 1And this is Conversations in Black and White.
Speaker 2Where we talk about race and racism in America.
Speaker 1So to start, I had asked Rocket well, to start. We're in a completely new setup, so if we sound different, we're no longer recording in the same room anymore. Right, we've kind of upgraded, I would argue.
Speaker 2You've upgraded, I've just gotten better.
Speaker 1I'm using a public library right now. Shout out to public libraries. You can put your tax dollar to work.
Speaker 2I I absolutely recommend it, um totally support your public libraries people, because they're uh battling some ish right now yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 1So this setup has taken a while to get um, which is why we haven't been recording that. And I don't have internet at my apartment anymore no Wi-Fi, no Ethernet, nothing. So I'm using a public library Rocket and I have been trying to get something to work here for quite a while now Over a month, it seems like.
Speaker 2Yeah, like almost two months actually, Because. I think we started trying this out in September. Yeah, and then your Internet was failing, yep, and then I had an awesome idea that worked, but your phone did not hold up my phone could not handle it at all. No, you really need to upgrade your phone.
Speaker 1Yeah, I looked at that yesterday. Actually, okay, it's too expensive. But last week we had tried that, we had tried a different method and I had asked Rocket to look into somebody.
Speaker 2Oh, God that. I have not done that yet.
Speaker 1For the life of me, oh God, that I have not done that yet. For the life of me, I believe it's just playing devil's advocate. But I think a part of him.
Speaker 2Okay, so I don't want to get into that, mostly because I haven't looked into that yet. Sure Um, because I mean, uh, you know again, I, I can't. We never know necessarily what someone's intent is. And then I am the type of person where, for me, intent doesn't mean a whole lot. I, intent doesn't mean a whole lot. Intent doesn't mean a whole lot, particularly when you have to take a look at the outcome.
Speaker 1Okay, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 2I'm just like you know, because people can have good intentions for all kinds of things and have, and that has gone disastrously. So I'm kind of like, well, what good was the intent? If the result was disaster, who cares what your intentions were?
Speaker 1I think, without the intent. Like if I don't have the intent to do good, then what drive do I have to do good? Why, why go and do good then if I have no intention of doing good?
Speaker 2you're, um, you're more focused on the why and I am the uh, the how and the result. The how and the what is is my focus, and you're a you're the why and the how and I'm the how and the what yeah, which is what? Happened. What was the result?
Speaker 1yeah, pretty much pretty much pretty much, getting a little bit of both sides on this, for sure. All right, um so.
Speaker 2So that was your question, though, was did I look into that thing?
Speaker 1yeah no I will do.
Speaker 2I will definitely do that by the time we do this next time, and we'll have to figure that out, um, once we're done with this session. So I did have a topic that I thought about, um, that I want to talk about before we talk about, uh, project 2025, because that is a thing that is happening for sure, and I kind of thought of something to sort of like lead into that a little bit in a way.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2So I wanted to talk about what is colorism.
Speaker 1No idea.
Speaker 2No idea. Okay, so you actually do have. You actually do have somewhat of an idea, because in a way, we all do. Um, so colorism is the, uh, the concept, and sometimes it's blatant, sometimes it's latent, but it's the concept that the lighter your skin color is, particularly if you're BIPOC, that makes you better, that is perceived to be better, and the darker your skin is puts you more into the I guess, the bad category. I don't like saying it that way.
Speaker 1Sure right, because yeah, yeah exactly. I see what you're saying, but you shouldn't. I don't think. I think there's a better way to phrase that.
Speaker 2You're right, there's a better way to phrase it, but I sure can't think of it. Right Um so let's see people who are, uh, particularly, we're talking specifically about when you're a bipoc. Uh, when you're bipoc, um, the concept of colorism is that the lighter your skin is, uh, the better, the better you are okay um yes, I have.
Speaker 1I have dated somebody who has had experience with that, but it was reverse for her. Um, right well, I guess technically she experienced both ways, where she would try to hang out with black kids and black kids would tell her no, you're too, you're too white. And she would try to hang out with white kids and they would tell her no, you're too black.
Speaker 2Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1Colorism. It sounds like the way you're describing. It is only one way, and that's the lighter your skin is, people are going to have a better perception of you, and the darker your skin is, people are going to have less of that better perception.
Speaker 2Yeah, and there are many examples of that. A really good one that is definitely polarizing, but it's still an example, is OJ's profile in the news. They actually darkened the lighting of his picture to make him look darker, complected because that kind of conveyed more malice when they were doing the profile.
Speaker 1Okay, I've heard, not for OJ, but other stars. If you will, I don't want to call anyone out, but other stars have done similar things. Well, maybe not they themselves, but the people who take their photos.
Speaker 2Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1They'll either try to make their, depending on what they're going for, will try to make their skin look lighter or darker, depending on who their I guess target audience is. That's what it seems like, at least. I don't want to necessarily say that's exactly what they're doing, but that's what it seems like.
Speaker 2Like I said, sometimes it's blatant. In the case of what I was talking about with, like og's profile, sometimes that was blatant, that was definitely blatant, that was intent, um, and then sometimes it's latent, like we don't really realize that we are doing that right that's okay.
Speaker 1So how does that lead into our next subject?
Speaker 2um, it's more like, uh, how we perceive, how we perceive things, um, based on, I guess, how they're presented. Um, um, let's see, particularly um speaking for myself, uh, as a lighter complected person, um, a lot of people assume that I'm biracial right which uh doesn't necessarily offend me, um, because it's not necessarily an unfair assumption, because I look biracial.
Speaker 2Um so I think for me, um, where I perceive it like as uh, in a way a kind of colorism, is, there have been white people that have said racist things not to me but, let's see, not directed towards me but they have said racist things about people who are darker than me, thinking that I'm half white, which means that the white half of me will agree with that.
Speaker 1Right, I see what you're saying, that is. That's an interesting predicament to be in.
Speaker 2Uh, yeah, um, because what's funny is that? So my daughter is is biracial, right, um, and she has run into the exact same thing, um, and she does look. She looks white, she looks like a white person, like you kind of have to squint to see the african-american features that she has, um, but yeah, she has said the same thing. Like you know, white people have said, uh, racist things to her about black people, either not realizing that she's biracial or knowing that and thinking that that means that the part of her that's white is going to agree with it.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And I'm just like WTF, mofo. How how does that work?
Speaker 1I. That's a. That's a good question. I'm I can't necessarily wrap my head around why somebody.
Speaker 2So that is definitely a situation where I don't care about the why, but I'm very curious about the why. And you're a white guy and when I presented that predicament you totally got it. So do you have any insight?
Speaker 1I'm very curious. I I don't. All my insight is going to come from other people, essentially and stories I've heard from other people, oh sure, or or not necessarily stories from other people, I mean my own experiences too, but that's not going to weigh in as much as, like, like things you've told me, you know, because I'm not. You've seen my skin? I'm not black, I'm not nowhere near. So nope, I'm not going to experience some of those same things, but I will experience. How do you say this? I will experience things so, so, like going off of that. You know, a white guy talks to you or your daughter, hoping the white side of you will, will agree. Right, they'll, they'll rip on on black people, hoping the white side of you will agree. I can speak in a similar experience, where other white people will talk to me in a similar manner and expect that, because I'm white, I must automatically agree.
Speaker 1Right, exactly, but I don't have the experience where it's. I haven't had to go through the same things black people have had to go through, so it's it is kind of interesting to me.
Speaker 2It's something that I noticed around the time of 2017. I kind of noticed and I don't necessarily think it was necessarily that they thought that because I'm half white which again I'm not that you know that half of me was going to agree with the stuff that they said. I have noticed that there is kind of like a sort of a blanket conception among many, many white people that the way they think is the way that everyone else thinks it's part of white privilege. Actually, it's one of those white privilege type deals.
Speaker 1Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's a common trope, if you will, to see that amongst white people. I don't necessarily want to lump everyone together and say, oh, everybody is like that, uh well, no because I feel like that that's why I said kind of is blanketed right a blanket you know, what I'm trying to stress here is that, um, just because you meet somebody, they're not necessarily going to be, uh, racist towards you just because they're white um, so you're kind of doing the hashtag, not all white people thing.
Speaker 2You get that right.
Speaker 1A bit sure sure.
Speaker 2You do realize you don't have to do that.
Speaker 1I never know, I never know, okay.
Speaker 2So, when black people commit crimes and that's portrayed in the media, I don't automatically jump to my own defense and say not all black people. So when we are talking about some kind of common concepts that fall into the category of being a white person in America, particularly in this day and age, uh, so you're kind of doing the same thing, um, so the thing about the whole not all white people thing firstly, it's not necessary, um, and then secondly, uh, you are jumping to your own defense over, I guess, the topic that we're talking about. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1A bit, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2That's one of the things that makes that a bad thing, actually.
Speaker 1Well, thank you for bringing that to my attention. That's not something I'm going to be actively thinking about.
Speaker 2And that's why I'm telling you about it, because a lot of I've heard that from many, many white people and I keep trying to explain like, firstly, that's not necessary. And secondly, when you immediately jump, when you meet, when you immediately do that, you are jumping to your own defense and prioritizing that over the topic of discussion or what's the topic at hand, like the main topic. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2Because I do not feel the need to jump to my own defense when Candace Owens says something that like triggers me.
Speaker 1Phrasing it that way absolutely makes sense. Again, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and that's why we do this. That is why we do this Because you know, like I'm very glad to know for a fact, that there are white allies for the cause of minorities. You know that's awesome, but you don't have to prop up your own defense, it's not necessary.
Speaker 1Okay, let's get back to our topic at hand, then, and that would be before before we delved into that. Where, where did we leave off?
Speaker 2oh geez, that was forever in a day ago. Um, because we were supposed to be talking about virtuous victim narrative and then we found out about project 2025 and I was like okay, we need to table virtuous victim narrative and build up to project 2025 okay, so do we just jump into that?
Speaker 1do we just want to jump into project?
Speaker 22020 have you looked into project 2025?
Examining Project 2025 and Heritage Foundation
Speaker 1I've heard of it and that's it. I have not seen anything on it. I haven't bothered looking into it because it feels like one of those. If you, how do you say this? If you give it, if you start looking into it and you start doing the research, you're giving it credence, like you're giving it substance, you're giving it life, you're breathing life into it and saying okay, I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 2So the unfortunate thing is that Project 25 is an actual thing.
Speaker 1That's what I've heard, but according to who you know? Yeah, okay, I see your point you know, yeah, okay, I see your point. If it's cnn or nbc or or fox or whatever, you know me, I'm a conspiracy theorist of sorts. Uh, who runs those?
Speaker 2the thing is that project 2025 is an actual conspiracy oh, it's a conspiracy, okay, well it's, in itself, the project 25, and that's why I want you to look into it. So I guess what we can do is we can talk about um and maybe the audience can do this as well like, follow along with us. We can talk about the things that you and then look into what Project 2025 itself actually is, and I will go ahead and warn you that it is 900 pages long if you want to read the actual document.
Speaker 1I don't think so. It's by the Heritage Foundation.
Speaker 2Correct. So a really important thing to look into is what the Heritage Foundation is, because the Heritage Foundation will tell you a whole lot of things that it isn't, which is for me and it should be for you as well a gigantic, freaking red flag.
Speaker 1A research and educational institution. Which would be great if I ended the sentence there. Right mission is to build and promote conservative public policies based on washington dc. I gotta'm in their page and the first thing become a member, donate no, thank you and then you have to, you have to look at all the things that it says it isn't.
Speaker 2And then look at some of the members of project 2020 of the Heritage Foundation, and, as I'm saying this, I am going to go ahead and say out loud, because this is true the Heritage Foundation was responsible for how Trump and there's no other way to say this without talking about politics um, and politics is a big part of project 2025 um, the heritage foundation is responsible for trump being able to get so many seats on um, the supreme court, and then, like, the first thing that they did was overturn Roe v Wade.
Speaker 1The Heritage Foundation was able to accomplish that you're saying.
Speaker 2Yes, the Heritage Foundation basically gave Trump a you know, a play by play of everything that he needed to do to secure I think it was three Supreme Court seats. Conservative On the conservative side.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And because they were able to help him to do that. That's how they were able to overturn Roe v Wade as fast as they were.
Speaker 1Interesting.
Speaker 2So right there, that kind of gives you an idea of the kind of influence that this organization has.
Speaker 1Okay, I'm in their website. I'll read a bit of what they're saying if you don't mind. Sure, now more than ever, the American people need a champion to preserve the great American experiment and everything good and just that. It represents Good and just that it represents. Oh boy. I don't want to necessarily cherry pick, but I'm also trying to skim through some of this to find some stuff. Heritage is also more than a think tank. Every day, heritage works on our nation. We're not able to build an America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity and civil society flourish which I mean. That sounds good. Freedom, opportunity, prosperity and civil society flourish which I mean. That sounds good. Freedom, opportunity, prosperity that sounds good. But unlike so many other organizations in Washington DC, the Heritage Foundation's focus isn't on putting more power into the hands of government. It's on returning power to the people.
Speaker 2So they say that and then you have to read project 2025 um, because, yes, I have also been on their website and I have also um seen, like their recruiting videos and um articles that they've written about all the things that they quote, unquote, aren't and don't represent, and you know, liberal conspiracies which have you believe that we do this thing. And then I'm like but you did, you did do that thing, so what gives?
Speaker 1it goes on to say our team then takes the. Okay, I'll skip past that. Heritage has been consistently ranked the number one think tank in the world for it. Okay, but by who? It doesn't tell you who's ranking it like I I'm number one in the world. I've constantly been ranked as the number one person in the world by me and my cats. You know so. And I'm the number one boss, ass, black bitch right, me and my cats, you know so, and I'm the number one boss-ass black bitch.
Speaker 1Right, exactly, you've got that going for you. I've got this going for me.
Speaker 2We're doing great.
Speaker 1We're constantly number one, but we don't stop there. We also communicate to citizens how government can work more effectively for all Americans through traditional oh my God for all Americans. Through traditional oh my God, I can't even talk through traditional media and social media platforms. Engage with the international community to promote freedom, peace and trade that benefits America and the world. Train the leaders of tomorrow who will lead America. See, that's where I'm kind of having a problem with it. If you're trying to put power into the hands of people, then why are you training the leaders of tomorrow who will lead America to a better or brighter future? And help unite the conservatives around principles and ideas that strengthen our cause, our cause, ok, well, see, and the nation? Dot, dot, dot. And the nation is what it says technically.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1So yeah, I'm like how far do you lose me Right you?
Speaker 2lose me right.
Speaker 1No, no. Some of their ideas were yeah, like I, I can understand um better and brighter future, promoting freedom, peace and trade um prosperity, that that sort of stuff. But through our own ideas is what it's essentially saying through the conservative. We're going to do this, but's essentially saying Through the conservative.
Speaker 2We're going to do this, but we want to do it. The conservative it's only through the conservative lens and right there I'm like, okay, and that would be where you lose me.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2Because, well, I've seen what conservatives do, have done and what they promote and believe, and it's pretty much like a Christian-driven autocracy.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2In a country where church and state are supposed to be separate. So there's that In a country where not everyone is Christian. So you know that's important to think about.
Speaker 1What is the? Isn't there a stat on that?
Speaker 2um, and I think that the christian population is, or christians, people who identify as christian, is going down um. It is actually the islam nation. Is um becoming the fastest growing religion in the country is it really um? Yes, actually in the world. So it's like approximately 70% of the country is Christian.
Speaker 1Sure.
Speaker 2Approximately 6% is non-Christian and approximately 23% is religiously unaffiliated.
Speaker 1Yes, that sounds about right. So I think therein sort of lies the answer for why people are so pro-conservative right now. And I think give it four, well, four years, eight years, give it 10 years. You know, we're going to slowly see that drop, like it has been. I project.
Speaker 2It has been slowly dropping.
Speaker 1That's going to keep going down and then at some point we'll get that shift, once we're about 50-50, but until as long as you've got 60% of people believing in one religion, primarily one religion, they're going to vote for those people. One religion primarily one religion, they're going to vote for those people.
Speaker 2So my thing is that, again, we shouldn't be voting for people based on their religious beliefs with the idea that they're going to institute religious constructs that govern everyone in the country.
Speaker 1Right, but how do you stop that? How do you stop people from voting religiously, with religion in mind?
Speaker 2I don't think that there has been a whole lot of emphasis placed on the fact that church and state are supposed to be separate. Also, I can go ahead and tell you that Trump is not a Christian. What is he? The Antichrist.
Speaker 1What religion?
Speaker 2Oh boy, I mean, I can tell you what he says, he is.
Speaker 1Oh my God, he sells like a $60 Bible. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa. The last five presidents have been Christian.
Speaker 2Uh yeah.
Speaker 1Yep, oh, biden, christian, well, the last, I'm sorry, they've all been Christian. Yeah, every single president. Well, except for Thomas Jefferson, who was non-specified deism, every president, uh, has been Christian.
Speaker 2Yes, and I'm going to go ahead and say this out loud that does include Barack Obama, who is not a Muslim.
Speaker 1Are we questioning that? Is our audience questioning that Some?
Speaker 2people might still be, because again this man had to release his birth certificate.
Speaker 1Still wrapped up in the 2008 debates. I know right.
Speaker 2So I'm kind of like that's the only thing worth saying out loud.
Speaker 1Joe Biden was Catholic. And then we, the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, all the way back to Richard Nixon. So Richard Nixon to Donald Trump. They were all Protestant.
Speaker 2Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 1That's insane, I mean. But if you're, how do you say this? If you know, like we just established 60% and the further back you go it's a higher percentage. So many people are Christian.
Speaker 2Of course you're going to play to that, of course I suppose, Um, I, I think, like, uh, I mean, presidents have governed this country without um using religion as a platform.
Speaker 1As a platform. I can't speak to that.
Speaker 2I've only as a political platform is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1I feel like every president does, though they speak to it in some way.
Speaker 2That's not what I mean. So when I say that I don't mean like a platform as in you know, like what their policies are and you know what their promises are going to be, that kind of thing. I mean more like without instituting religion to govern us, that kind of platform, a platform for this country, for how we operate as both a country and a society.
Speaker 1So because we're talking about separation of church and state, because we're talking about separation of church and state, my question still kind of stands is like how do you do that? How do you separate the church and the state?
Speaker 2It was supposed to always be that way.
Speaker 1You want, and you said something earlier that there's not enough emphasis on separation of church and state. Do you think that would help, emphasizing separation of church and state, because I don't want to call them I don't want to say that because that sounds kind of mean People who are really religious. Do you really think they're going to separate them themselves, like if somebody were to tell me you can't, you're listen, odeko, beat my name for me, please. Yeah, I will Listen, odeko. You're agnostic. Okay, you can't vote with your agnosticism. Agnostic, you can't vote with that Agnosticism. Agnostic, you can't vote with that agnosticism. I don't know, you can't are we making words?
Speaker 1I mean we can, I wouldn't be able to, I, I wouldn't be able to do that. And to me that's the same as going up to to somebody who is religious and saying, listen, I know you were raised protestant, I know you were raised Baptist or through the Latin church, whatever, but you can't vote with that in mind, because those things made those people what they are, they were raised with that. And to tell them you can't, when you're voting, you can't do any of that, and not just voting. But when you're running for office, you can't do any of that, and not just voting. But when you're running for office, you can't do that.
Speaker 2Um, okay.
Speaker 1That's a core part of it.
Speaker 2There is a thing called compartmentalism, which is how I pretty much live my life.
Speaker 1Aren't you supposed to not compartmentalize? I'm sorry, who are you talking to? I don't know. Like I'm just saying, I thought I never.
Speaker 2Are you going to tell me what I can and can't do now?
Speaker 1I went to therapy once 20 years ago, you know. So I mean I don't know.
Speaker 2Okay at some point we're going to have to talk about race and therapy, because that is a whole thing. Okay, so when I say compartmentalization, I'm saying more like I have certain religious beliefs, which means, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say it because I'm not ashamed, I'm an atheist. How often have I ever talked about being an atheist?
Speaker 1Um, I don't know, uh, offhand, cause I I'm not keeping track of all of that. I'm not just like oh man, rocket 88 today, dear diary, rocket 88 again talked about her.
Speaker 2So there's a. Let's see, let me do it this way, all righty. So let's see a vegan, an atheist and a CrossFit enthusiast walk into a bar.
Speaker 1Oh, I feel like I already know where this is going yeah.
Speaker 2So that sounds like a joke, right, but it's not. I know that because they all started talking about it as soon as they walked in.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And it is a. It is pretty much kind of a common trope that vegans, atheists and CrossFit enthusiasts kind of can't shut up about it. I've never been a vegan, but I am an atheist and I have done CrossFit.
Speaker 1So I was going to say, to be fair, going off of what I was saying earlier, like I haven't been documenting how often you talk about you being atheist, but I can't. I can't recall a time where we expressly talked about it either, so obviously it doesn't come up that much, but maybe why doesn't it come up there? That's what I'm kind of getting to. Maybe that's something you don't discuss with me very often. I don't know how often you talk about it with other people. You know we kind of act differently around different people.
Speaker 2And in different settings.
Speaker 1Absolutely. We try to elate people.
Speaker 2And I do that more than most.
Speaker 1So maybe maybe you do, but to me you definitely don't. You don't talk about your atheism, so are you saying that you're capable of disregarding that when it comes time for politics?
Speaker 2Let's see. The best way that I can think to put it is there are things about myself that don't necessarily that don't. They definitely don't define me, but they also don't govern my judgment and my actions. Right For me when making certain decisions. Me when making certain decisions. The fact that I don't believe in the God that Christians believe in, has literally nothing to do with a statement I make or an action that I perform. I'm going based off of the things that I think are right, Usually for me, sometimes for other people, because I mean, I do work in healthcare, Right, and I think, because I work in healthcare, I am able to not only compartmentalize because how else would I, you know, not have blown my brains out by now but also I'm able to look at a situation and be like, well, is this the best situation for the patient?
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2That's part of my job.
Speaker 1So that's compartmentalizing.
Speaker 2That's compartmentalizing. I don't bring it home with me unless I have to, just so I can get it out.
Speaker 1Right, that's what that would be called, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, but other than that, you know, I'm not constantly. Sometimes it's sitting in the back of my mind. It depends on how bad it is. But in general, when I come home I am no longer in work mode, I am in rocket needs a drink mode. Yeah, I can. Hallelujah. Yeah so that's what I mean, and I think that particularly what we're seeing now is there are people who, well, can't compartmentalize, can't make those distinctions, can't compartmentalize, can't make those distinctions, but they're making decisions that are best for them, that affect literally everyone else.
Speaker 1Okay, so that's. That's what I want to talk about, too, is let's, let's bring this back to to Heritage Foundation real quick. Okay, sure, they're a think tank, they're a conservative think tank, and they're not the only one. There's not just one think tank. There are, I don't know, dozens of these, maybe more than that.
Speaker 2Yeah, like a couple hundred.
Speaker 1For each political association. So so it's not just one on think tank. And that's where. Where I struggle with this is is we're we're constantly saying, we're constantly placing blame on the current president, Like I can blame Biden all day for anything, you know, anybody could, but it's him making those decisions. Um same same with go go back to Trump, go back to Obama, go back to Bush. Is it always them making that decision or do they have that think tank behind them? Do they have a group of people that they go, they talk to, they sit down, they have some of these discussions and that group of people, that think tank, decides okay, what is best, what's our best move from here on out? What do we do next?
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, I see, I see.
Speaker 1And that's where we start to get into the conspiracy of is the president a puppet? And I don't want to. I don't really want to delve into that. I would very much like to think that the president isn't a puppet, but separate. I would say, like you know, certain situations and this is just a puppet, but separate I would say certain situations, and this is just a fact.
Speaker 2Certain situations are out of the president's hands, which is why we have the what is it called? But that's why we have the president, the Supreme Court, uh, the house and the senate yeah, the three branches the checks and balances system.
Speaker 1Thank you guys. They're supposed to to look after one another, but right, unfortunately, when one has more power than the other. And and also, how do you distinguish, how do you determine amount?
Speaker 2To talk about this a little bit. When Obama was in office, he did not have the support of the House and the Senate. When Trump got into office, he fired everybody who. He fired everyone he could and put into place his own weird version of nepotism and put into place like his own weird version of nepotism.
Speaker 1Well, that's my understanding is that you're allowed to. You don't have to keep the previous person's people in. So why would you, if I don't like somebody say you were president and you go in, or vice versa, one of us was president and the opposite will be going in after? Okay, are you going to keep everybody that I I have on? No, uh, that's, the odds are not same in reverse. I come in after you, I'm not going to keep on everybody you have, um, but. But I will see to uh, the nepotism point for that that. You said that he installed some people for nepotistic reasons.
Speaker 2Yeah, but. And then they hired people Right. You know also so.
Speaker 1Something I've learned in my job through nepotism, as much as I don't like it, is if I like somebody, I trust them Right. So am I going to go for the outside, hire who I don't know, who I don't trust, and hope that in six months time I trust them? Or am I going to go with the guy I've known for a while, who I can trust and that's still nepotism. That's happened in a few of my jobs and some of the lower employees don't agree with it. But at the end of the day, it's not up to the lower employees. At the end of the day, it's not up to the civilians, the people voting who Trump's going to hire, who Biden's going to hire for their teams. It's up to them.
Speaker 2Yeah, but is that person always the best person for the job?
Speaker 1No, and even if even the outside hire it's, it's both. This is that two way street where I guess the only way the civilian, the average citizen, can vote or can sway that is by voting for who they want. Ok, like do do I know Trump is going to hire, nepotistic, make nepotism hires or nepotistic hires Is. Will I like the people he hires?
Speaker 2So this is why we are both going to have to look into Project 2025, because it is pretty much a playbook for the next conservative president but that's if they follow it, because, again, that's one think tank.
Speaker 1Just just because how do I say this? Just because they're the number one think tank and I say that.
Speaker 2I say that with air quotes, um, because yes, we're gonna stress the air, air quotes, because according to whom um? That doesn't mean the next conservative president is going to to follow them, right you know um, let's see I can't really talk much more about project 2025 without doing the due diligence of proper research right, let's not talk about things we don't anything about that will be something that we can talk about next time, um, particularly since uh election week is coming up.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, that's fun. That's real fun.
Speaker 2And it will probably be a minute for the president-elect to get announced. You think so that might take a second.
Speaker 1Why do you think that?
Speaker 2Oh, because of a lot of-unquote safeguards that have been put in place to prevent election fraud.
Speaker 1Is that really a week away? Eight days, wow, I didn't think it was so close. I thought it was another two weeks or something. No Time flies when you're having. Well, it's not fun watching the election stuff, but it is what it is yeah, no I'm tired of.
Speaker 2I'm so tired of, uh, in a way kind of stressing about it I?
Speaker 1I wouldn't remember. This is what People stressed about. People have been stressing about the last couple of elections now Um yeah, like at least the last three. Nothing really, I would argue. Changes yes, some laws do change, but the most part, day to day life doesn't seem to change too much.
Speaker 2It depends on your perspective, which is again a really good reason to look into Project 2025.
Speaker 1Okay, well, we'll do that. We'll do that and talk about it next week.
Speaker 2Next week. Okay, so let's see, I figure, since we still have time, we can talk about a topic on the pyramid of white supremacy.
Speaker 1I guess let's get into fearing people of color.
Speaker 2Sure.
Speaker 1What? Where do you think that stems from?
Speaker 2uh, uh, it's systemic, um, and it's generational, um. Okay. So in our very first recording, um and I haven't put the second part of that up yet, but we were talking about movies, and remember what I was talking about? The Birth of a Nation, vaguely Okay. So the Birth of a Nation is one of the first full-length feature films. It was a silent film. Oh, right, right, I remember it was featured at the White House, and Woodrow Wilson touted it pretty hard, which I guess tells you what he thought about slavery.
Speaker 1But the movie is about a black slave and these were blackface characters characters, by the way, right, I remember you telling me that and that the video was hard to find nowadays yeah, but you can. You can see it on um youtube okay you can see I haven't bothered trying to find it.
Impact of Media Portrayal on Perception
Speaker 2Maybe one day I'll I'll have the yeah one day with all that'll be, something to like take a look at and then you know, digest slowly, but it's about a black slave who uh rapes a white woman and gets lynched um, that's the kind of the very, very short version. There are a couple of different things that are going on in that film, but I that's kind of the central narrative. So that film is uh teaching uh white. Specifically, it's teaching um white men to protect their white daughters from black men, because black men like inherently uh lust after white women okay, that movie is.
Speaker 1How old now?
Speaker 2movie is how old now? Uh, it's really old um 100 years. That sounds like over 100 years it might be about 100 years.
Speaker 1Yeah, okay is it?
Speaker 11915 over 100 years, 110 years almost over 100 years is it safe to say that that's Well, I don't want to say it like that. We all know that. How do you say that no idea is a new idea? We're kind of working off of previous ideas. To when another movie is made, say a movie is made in 1925, that carries some of previous ideas. To when another movie is made, say a movie is made in 1925 that carries some of the ideas. So say the the artist of the 1925 movie saw that 1950 film, 1915 film. They're going to carry some of those ideas into their 1925 and then it propagates down. But I think the returns are diminishing after so long.
Speaker 2Some things just leave a really deep impression and I would say fearing people of color, particularly if you are darker skinned, is a very deeply ingrained impression. Um, I've seen, like I've lived in baltimore, and seen, um, you know, like a, a white woman passed by a group of like, uh, black teenagers and she like skirts around them and is clutching her purse, that kind of thing. Right, let's see, a black woman might get loud and people are thinking that she is being ultra-aggressive and are intimidated by that or afraid of that. A lot of people who are victims of stand-your-ground laws have been black people, and this includes Trayvon Martin.
Speaker 1Okay, these people haven't seen that 100-year-old movie. That's not my point, I know, I know, but what I'm trying to, get at is go ahead, you go, no, no my point was these people haven't seen these.
Speaker 2This movie keep going, so where? How?
Speaker 1has that propagated? Is what I'm trying to. What I want to discuss is how has that propagated? Is what I'm trying to. What I want to discuss is how has how has that propagated into what we're seeing today? You know, I'm not I'm not trying to discount it or anything. I'm trying to discuss it. That's that's what I'm trying to do. I don't want it to sound like I'm my point isn't necessarily about the movie itself.
Speaker 1My point is that there are certain impressions that have some deep, deep roots, that do go back to slavery okay, and that is why, like that's what's led us to do this, um section on on this pyramid is people of color is well, I just told you what the.
Speaker 2I told you what the movie was about. Right and um, the uh, the, um, the message that it was sending. That is kind of a big thing about the acts behind lynchings and slave regrades, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1That's what I'm trying to get at is is, um, that understanding? Okay, so that, so, seeing that movie like that movie is made in 1915, that propagates to the things that are now happening in in the twenties, the thirties Okay, there we go Now, now, now are now happening in in the 20s, the 30s okay, there we go now. Now, now we're on. I think we're on to something. Now we're we're starting to get into um where that comes from, where that, um, hearing people of color, part of this, um, white supremacy comes from pyramid, uh, pyramid of white supremacy comes from, uh, because of white supremacy comes from, because these ideas, I don't think are just going to pop up on their own, you know, and then propagate more and more as time goes on. If that makes sense, I think it's going to start somewhere, and I'm not trying to say that, oh, it's because that movie was made.
Speaker 2Well, you can also look at the way that black people are portrayed in the media. Nowadays, it seems like there's been a shift um yes, nowadays it does seem like there's been a shift let's say, within the past 20 years again, like I said, um, there are certain uh concepts and ideas that leave a very, very deep impression. Right, and the media tends to celebrate particularly black-on-black crime. But, yeah, the media tends to celebrate black violent crimes when you watch like tv shows black people are gangsters usually drug dealers and italian people, having having been um married to an italian person yeah, and what's really funny?
Speaker 2uh, what her like great, great grandfather or uncle, something like that was a famous gangster in balt.
Speaker 1Jesus, that's fun Like.
Speaker 2I wish I was making that up. But yeah, he was a famous gangster, I think in the 20s.
Speaker 1Jesus.
Speaker 2I want to say the Baltimore, the Maryland slash, new Jersey area. That Kind of upper east coast or yeah yeah, upper, east coast oh, um, yeah. I would say uh, yeah. Well, that it's a, it's teaching people to um inherently think of us that way right and that bleeds into um society that.
Speaker 1that bleeds into what people think of the portrayal in these, these adaptations, these films or shows. That bleeds into what society in general thinks Right and that's where that fearing people of color comes from.
Speaker 2Right, I would say that would be a case, particularly like when you're talking about movies and TV shows, where I I feel like I have to say hashtag not all black people.
Speaker 1Okay, okay, that's interesting. Offhand, I can't think of any movie. Well, to be fair, I'm not really going to movies or shows anymore.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're not a big movie and TV show type person, so this is kind of like a tone deaf conversation that we're having.
Speaker 1A bit, a bit, and I apologize for that, but I am trying to understand as well, as long as talk about this and and open up that avenue of conversation and for our audience to to hear these things. Up that avenue of conversation and for our audience to to hear these things, um, because perhaps people are like me too, where where they're tone deaf in this as well and they don't, they don't see where it's coming from necessarily right to discuss it, I think, is absolutely helpful.
Speaker 1Um, but that that's that's an interesting thought, that the way media portrays people, and now that it's being said, now that I'm actually verbalizing it, I'm kind of like, oh yeah, that does make sense. You might not actively be thinking about it, but there's that subconsciously.
Speaker 2It's subconscious, right, it's subconscious, and that's kind of like. The underlying message that's being sent is that, you know, if all you see in the media is black violent crimes, well you're going to think that all black people are violent and something to be afraid of.
Police Transparency and White Allyship
Speaker 2Right something to be afraid of, right? It's um, one of those things like um again, like I was talking about, uh, stand your ground laws, and um, I mean those scare me because they do tend to disproportionately affect black people right I I don't have statistics on that and I don't I don't know if I want to use it. They are hard to find, my friend, are they Okay, but they are there.
Speaker 1I don't want to use the public library to try and find.
Speaker 2Every every couple of years, um, a reporter will do their due diligence and, uh, do their research so that they can get those statistics out there, because, conspiratorially, police don't really publish that. They have them. They have those records.
Speaker 1They do have those records, but they're not made public. Foya that. Why wouldn't somebody foya that Freedom of Information Act? Let's get that information.
Speaker 2One would think yeah, One would think.
Speaker 1I'm obviously not a lawyer.
Speaker 2You're not a lawyer either, right, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but I do know that the way that the police force operates is that they have to keep the faith of the community in order to be effective. So if they were to publish statistics that didn't paint them in the best light, they would lose the faith and then the support of the community that they're supposed to be quote unquote serving and protecting.
Speaker 1Got it. That makes sense. I hadn't considered that.
Speaker 2That's just me working through some logic.
Speaker 1Once you verbalize something, people aren't going to understand everything right off the bat. You can say A equals B, but that doesn't mean they're going to understand that B equals A Right, if that makes sense. That's a very oversimplified way of saying things, but sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, like I said, I had to work back through some, some logic to get there.
Speaker 1Right, all right. Do you want to move on to self-appointed white ally?
Speaker 2Sure white guy.
Speaker 1About 15 minutes. Oh, I'm not self-appointed, though If I take this to mean it at face value, I would not say I'm self-appointed, but it does make me. I guess I have questions on that, on that, and it's more. I don't know the right way to say this. So if we need to edit this, we'll need to edit this or take it out entirely, which I'm fine with. I'm absolutely fine If we ever need to take something out or you feel something needs to be taken out.
Speaker 1By all means, go for it. I'm, I do it often okay um. So when I see self-appointed white ally, you know, the first thing I think of are um, and I could be way off. Base is uh, is white women protesting in the streets for black violence? I don't want to say black violence, it would be for Black.
Speaker 2Lives Matter.
Speaker 1Yeah, on that, there we go yeah.
Speaker 2Okay, so in that sense I don't see that as self-appointed. So if you talk the talk but you're not walking the walk, that would put you in that self-appointed category. Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense or if you say something that sounds uh, for lack of a better word pun maybe intended off color, and then turn around and be like, but I'm an ally, got it.
Speaker 1Got it.
Speaker 2You know like who are you really aligning?
Speaker 1with Right. What side are you really on here? Yeah, where do your ideas stand? Where does your ideology line up? That makes more sense, okay, yeah. Where do your ideas stand? Where does your ideology line up? That makes more sense?
Speaker 2Okay, yeah, I would say, you know, like if you see, you know white people, whether they're male or female, protesting Black Lives Matter. They are making a statement and they are also putting themselves at risk.
Speaker 1That's not OK, those protests have gotten violent. Yes.
Speaker 2Particularly when police and certain individuals get involved, like that guy that saw the Black Lives Matter protest in New York and then put his foot on the gas into the crowd and killed two people.
Speaker 1Oh, I don't think I heard about that.
Speaker 2Yeah, he was driving a Dodge Charger, I believe. Oh boy, that's. And I would say yeah, like when people protest in their Antifa, you know, they wear masks because, well, they get arrested a lot and they also they can't identify themselves because they can't put themselves and their family at risk.
Speaker 1Right, so that's why they protest wearing masks at risk.
Speaker 2That's why they protest wearing masks. I've actually met someone who got arrested in the town that I lived in protesting under Antifa in the town that I'm from in Georgia. That was kind of a thank you for your service moment, because he could have gotten worse than the rest did. How long ago was that? Oh geez.
Speaker 1I had already been hit.
Speaker 2So 2018. It was in 2018. It was like a month after I got hit.
Speaker 1Not terribly long ago then Okay, no.
Speaker 2And then I met him. I met this guy about three, four months after msi proposed okay, oh wow it was a funny enough it was at a bridal expo and um, he had a booth and um, yeah, I was talking about, uh, how far out I had come because I drove two hours.
Speaker 2Wow, Uh to go to this bridal expo and he had a booth and he was like well, where did you come from? And when I told him, he was like, oh, I've been in Union. And I was like, really, and he was like, yep, got arrested there.
Speaker 2And I was like uh, that's a way to start a conversation, that that certainly is a way so, yeah, so when he yeah, and then he gave me the timeline and he, yeah, this was um, yeah, this was, uh, I had already been hit, um, I was still housebound um april of 2018. And I met that guy in June, I think.
Speaker 1So you were able to move shortly after thing hit.
Speaker 2What do you mean by move?
Speaker 1Like were you? I guess I'm just assuming Were you walking two months after, because you said you had to go two hours to this bridal, my timeline might be a little bit off because my memory is kind of screwy. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2I know that it was so, jor. It might have been um in the fall, uh, because wedding season in georgia is like from may till october, so it might have been in the fall. I'm pretty sure I was still on crutches okay, I wasn't sure.
Speaker 1I was like well, maybe you were using a wheelchair. To be fair, you know, I wasn't sure. Oh, I am.
Speaker 2My timeline is wrong. This was because M-Site proposed the December of 2018. So this would have been 2019 that I met the guy, okay. And yeah that was in the spring, but I think it was the late spring because I found out about the Bridal Expo, because I was working about two hours away from where I lived.
Speaker 1Got it Okay, so yeah, okay Now.
Speaker 2I'm starting to get the details right. I didn't mean to go off on a tangent with that, I was just oh no, that's fine because you know know, you helped me kind of remember something and line something up that wasn't quite working out well knowing what I know about you.
Speaker 1I was just interested in in hearing more about that too, um oh sure, no, that's fair uh, do we want to call this a good stopping point?
Speaker 2We can. I know that you've got to break down soon.
Speaker 1Yeah, the next one I want to talk about. I want to talk about it now, but I'm not going to have enough time If I launch into this now. I don't think we're going to. I'm going to go way past my time. My booking is done at three. It's 2.52.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1So, but just moving down the pyramid, I'm more um. Seeing the next one, I'm like, oh, I really want to talk about that. I think we'll uh Rocket and I will have a fun time talking about that one.
Speaker 2What is it?
Speaker 1Um, you've got the pyramid. You can, you can look at it. Oh, just say it. Just say it. Expecting people of color to teach white people.
Speaker 2I think that'll be a oh, that's going to be a fun one, especially since it's me and you doing this.
Speaker 1Exactly, that's exactly what I'm saying. That's going to be a fun one, okay, all right, so I guess we'll cut it here.
Speaker 2I've been Odeko Yep and I'm Rocket88. Thank you guys so much for listening to our podcast.
Speaker 1Talk to you guys next time.